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| Jude Doyle is one of several trans people Herzgal disparages in the podcast episode. ----------------------------------------------------- |
If you think that episode title sounds like an effort at both-sidesing the vicious psychopathic website Kiwi Farms versus one of their targets, you would be right.
I couldn't access the podcast via the website Archive Today, but since I knew that Singal has a sizable fanbase at Kiwi Farms, I figured I could find access there and sure enough, one of the kiwi farmers even had a link to a transcript of the show, which I have now archived via Archive Today.
The transcript has not been corrected for auto-transcription errors. For instance the name Eliza Rae Shupe is consistently misspelled "Shoop." But I'm going to assume the transcript is roughly correct in content, if less so in spelling.
Fairly early on in the podcast Singal demonstrates the technique of both-sidesing Kiwi Farms vs. its critics. My highlight.
Jesse: Anyway, we've discussed before that we think in certain cases there's like a little bit of a moral panic about Kiwi Farms. On the other hand, they do dox people. They do like fixate on these targets and talk about them for sometimes thousands of pages. So it's a little bit disingenuous to host a messaging board – Where in the most extreme cases, everyone's like, this person should kill themselves. This person should kill themselves...
So Kiwi Farms does all these terrible psychopathic things, and yet Singal suggests that concerns about Kiwi Farms are nothing more "in certain cases" than a bullshit moral panic.
A really weird aspect of this podcast episode is the revelation that, in spite of being aware of Kiwi Farms for years, Singal and Herzog apparently only now realize that it has a far-right tilt.
Jesse: So people sometimes say that Kiwi Farms only fixates on sort of left of center targets. And some other people say they like particularly fixate on trans targets. I think there's something to that. Now, there are some right wing people they get in beefs with. I will say, if you're going to fixate this much on Internet targets, there's definitely more worthy ones than the ones they pick. I think part of their ethos in some cases is like, oh, you want to be famous on the Internet? Here you go. And it can be very unpleasant.
0:23:12
Katie: Yeah. Okay, well, like, I just searched. I went to the site. I put it into my browser. I did all of the letters.
Jesse: Katie Herzog, confirmed Kiwi Farms user.
Katie: I searched for Chaya Rychik. She is the exact sort of person I would expect to have a thread on Kiwi Farms. Nothing.
0:23:45
Jesse: Well, I think Kiwi Farms probably agrees with her about, like, wokeness and blue-haired elementary school teachers. That doesn't surprise me.
Katie: But that's my point. Like...
Katie: Can we not get a Kiwi Farms that is a little broader? Oh, wait, actually. Okay, so there's Libs of TikTok Derangement Syndrome.
Jesse: That's the opposite. That's like a thread in favor of her.
(Pinkerite: yes there is a Libs of TikTok Derangement Syndrome thread at Kiwi Farms in which most of the commenters white-wash the actual harm that Libs of TikTok does. Singal was licking Elon Musk's boots not long ago. Musk is an enthusiastic supporter of Libs of TikTok.)
Katie: But that's what I want. I want a more egalitarian, a more democratic.
Jesse: Why can't we get a liberal Joe Rogan? That's what you're saying.
0:24:22
Katie: Why can't we get... Trade it in a lab under DNC headquarters. I don't want to have to go to Rational Wiki to find out.
Jesse: Oh, God. Rational Wiki makes Kiwi Farms look like... I don't know what. But they would never dock.
Katie: Anyway, so I just wish they could be a little broader in scope. That's all I'm asking for, farmers. Come on.
Jesse: Right.
So Herzgal has no problem with the psychopathy of Kiwi Farms, they just wish the psychopathy was a little more broad-based.
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| A Singal fan agrees |
Later on in the transcript, Singal hah hah lampshades the fact that his life's work is pure shit:
0:42:31
Katie: Okay, so what I'm curious about is, so Liz Fong Jones said that this person was making, that she's responding to a public accusation. So it just seems bizarre that Kiwi Farms, who are genuinely good detectives, they are very good at digging shit up, has never been able to find the accuser.
Jesse: So because I'm not looking...
Jesse: at all... I could devote the next three years of my life to looking at everything they've said about Liz Fong Jones on Kiwi Farms, which I am, thanks to a grant from the MacArthur Foundation.
It is funny that Singal claimed I'm tenacious and his good buddy Razib Khan claimed I was obsessed with him, and meanwhile Singal spends his time digging up Kiwi Farms dirt on Liz Fong-Jones.
As with the equally repellent Nina Paley, Singal defends the real-world consequences of Kiwi Farms psychopathy on the grounds of "free speech."
Jesse: I think you can understand from Liz Fong Jones' perspective why she'd want to pursue action against Kiwi Farms. And she's doing so totally within the laws of Australia. But you can also understand how chilling this is from a free speech and sort of basic internet discourse perspective.
Trans author Evan Urquhart had a good response to that argument:
Kiwi Farms’ whole reason for being has been to suppress the freedom of those they disagree with. Their users didn’t merely express themselves in hateful ways, but took action, often criminal action, to silence others. That’s why these online hooligans should never be allowed to wrap themselves in the free speech mantle. Free speech can thrive as long as Kiwi Farms can’t.
I think that Singal and Paley and other anti-trans grifters make money off of transphobia but want to maintain plausible deniability when the results of their grifting contributes to harm to actual human beings - for legal reasons if for no other.
To understand how insanely un-self-aware both Singal and Kiwi farmers are, Singal recounts, without comment, psychopathic Kiwi farmer ghouls unironically moaning about anybody stooping so low - and during Christmas.
Katie: But there could also be, I mean, it's possible he got, he quit who fucking knows.1:10:13Jesse: Yeah. Let's assume for the sake of argument that this is the guy, which I think he is, and that he was fired.Jesse: News of this was posted to the front page of Kiwi Farms. A lot of Kiwi farmers were outraged that Liz Fong Jones would stoop this low, especially on Christmas and during Christmas.
Someone on Bluesky created a custom feature that allows users to see if someone is a follower of Jesse Singal on Bluesky.
All you have to do is go to this profile and subscribe. Then if someone is a follower of Singal a label will appear on their posts. You can also just subscribe to the Jesse Singal Followers block list. Probably a good idea since it's likely that a certain percentage of Singal's followers are Kiwi farmers.
